Hasan Sonsuz Celiktas:
Dear Burak, let’s begin with you. Your book Rendezvous with Marduk: 2012 was published in 2004, and now we are in 2012. As we came closer to 2012, we witnessed the points you highlighted in your book occurring one by one. Speaking honestly, the tension in all of us increased, as well as the chaos all over the world. May I get your opinions? What is happening on this planet? Where it is going? Can you summarize it for us?
Actually, this current process is not a result of newly emerged conditions or unexpected developments. We have only reached the critical steps of this gradual process. When my book, 2012: Rendezvous with Marduk, first came out, I kept saying:
Do not consider 2012 as a historic mystic event or prophecy. Do not expect a sudden breaking point. All collective processes emerge in a wider schedule of time, just like all geological events. In 2004, your perception and way of thinking will be different as you are surfeited with certain developments. Many things will change in 2005 compared to the previous year, and the same will be true for 2006… I mean, 2012 is not a moment of magical transformation; we are already within this process. While in this process, you will be so focused on problems and developments that you cannot imagine it now; your perception of the world will not be the same as before.
This is what we experience today. Each day, week, month, and year brings its own agenda to the spotlight and builds the conjuncture gradually. When I wrote this book, few people knew we had a climate change problem. Drought, agricultural crises, and climate problems are now top topics in the world’s agenda. Nothing happens because of sudden jumps or surprises. Yesterday and today’s developments prepare the way for tomorrow. This applies to social and political events, as well as geological and atmospheric occurrences.
Admittedly, in history there may have been phases where the process gains momentum. We are living one of them, roughly since the end of 1990s. Today, we are witnessing one of the substantial transformations in history.
After a hundred years, our grandchildren will say, “It must have been nice to live in that era,” but witnessing such a transformation is not an easy thing. Cem uttered a similar sentence in one of our interviews. He said that our country was in a renewal and transformation process that would take a few years. May I get your opinions, Cem? What do you observe on the planet?
I think this is a matter of critical mass. I agree with Burak. Even when we evaluate the situation from a historic, esoteric or sociological perspective, it is obvious that a mass grew until it ran out of space, and now it has to transform itself into something else. Perhaps it has to give birth to itself. As far as I can remember, if I am not mistaken, the Mayans believed that the Milky Way was pregnant and would give birth in 2012. Burak knows these things better. When I observe this from my point of view, I can see some facts clearly. Humanity has plunged into so much amnesia and unawareness (which I call as ignorance) that we are in a nightmare that we do not see as a nightmare. At the edge of the transformation, I think the most serious danger is our consciousness and reality model.
Buddha says, “The darkness increased. I am here to bring light because of a decision made thousands of years ago.” He does not say, “I am here to rescue the world.” What he says is that if we do not rid ourselves of the darkness of our ignorance, Mara (or the Devil as it is named in western terminology), our future will not be good. Strangely, when I examined numerology reports of myself and some of my friends, I realized an interesting situation. For example, that year heralds a new beginning of leadership for me. However, I really dislike being a leader and find it annoying. I also realized that my friends will also face situations that they have difficulty with. Inevitably, I suspected that this was not a coincidence. I felt as if we were going to face and fight our darkness, ignorance, and weaknesses. Consequently, our current era points out that we have reached a critical mass. The year 2012 will prove to be the start of a kind of birth.
When we look at the last thousand years, what we see is sorrow, massacre, hatred and fear. This is our own darkness and our own mistake, which is called Mara (or the Devil) in Buddhism. We have repeated these mistakes so many times that theysomehow materialized. According to Tao Esoterism, if any way of thinking is well nourished, it occurs as a material within the field of existence. So, the main question here is what we should do now. Here is a most crucial point, because this will determine how we proceed in this level of evolution. This evolution is taking us to our own destruction. At this point, I presume we will need a mutation, a sudden jump rather than an evolution. We will win the game if we can make this jump and transform.
So, we understand that we do not only experience sociological, economical and political changes but also some transformations in our humanity. We change both physically and spiritually, and this is not a revolution but an evolution. What do you think, Burak?
If you observe the situation from a given point, it looks as if it has three different dimensions that are all independent from each other:
• The physical or cosmological transformation that occurs in the material plane
• The economical, political, and cultural transformations taking place in the collective structure
• The transformation of the individuals, which if we have to define it, we can use the famous term “awareness.”
However, this is an illusion. All three of these are directly connected to each other. Cem mentioned the Mayan symbolism of “the pregnancy of the galaxy.” As this “era shift” means “the death of the old and the birth of the new,” this symbolism fits 2012 metaphorically. This is the philosophic side of the issue. The Mayans thought that a new era would begin on Earth that would occur at the cosmic level, and we would get our share from its reflection. They told this using the concepts of “the womb of the universe” and “time’s birth from the place.”
On the other hand, as Cem stated, “individual enlightenment” is also one of the crucial components of this change and transformation process. Enlightenment is not a sudden revelation, even for the person or society. Processes materialize gradually. The development of the individual, as well as societies, is the same. To give an example, the French Revolution was not an instant development; it was the natural result of a new trend that emerged in the 12th century. We are faced with a similar situation now. First, the structure we are cosmically in is experiencing a huge change, and it signals renewal.
After Rendezvous with Marduk was published, I always emphasized that these events should not be considered as being triggered by a sudden transformation, and I said, “Marduk is only a detail within all these universal processes.” Although its results are important, it is only a small part of the whole process. If our universe is reaching one of the critical milestones of the cosmic process, a material and spiritual transformation of individuals is inevitable.
However, if we evaluate the case from the perspective of “the evolution of human species,” we should remember that this applies to every member of the species. We will not wake up one morning to find we have transformed into another state. Besides, most will not experience any change but will only observe and try to understand what is happening. This transformation and awareness will only be effective for a small minority. The momentum that will change the social structures will build up within this minority, as it will in future generations.
To summarize, if there are more people who experience spiritual awakening, this means both the cosmic and the collective conditions that set the stage for this transformation will be developed enough.
This is all very complicated and meaningful; however, I want to ask a superficial question, because I’m sure the media will mention these things a lot and misinform us. Dear Burak, what will happen to our planet on December 22, 2012? How will we start the day?
Let me repeat again: Such transformational phases are experienced within a frame of time that is bound to numerous parameters. Consequently, any expectation of a sudden change on December 22, 2012 is entirely wrong. However, the veins that feed that perception lie within the collective ideology. This is the worst thing. For example, religions wait for a doomsday. Alternatively, some people who perceive things from other dimensions claim they get some messages from self-styled channels.
I think we should not waste time with such things; let’s take the right path: December 22, 2012 is a symbolic date that sets the limit for a process, just like a sign or a milestone. There will be no unexpected or horrid developments that day. This date is in fact the winter solstice, which was used as a beginning date by the Mayans and other ancient societies. The process has already been ongoing for a while. As I mentioned before, the world we live on is very different to the one six years before. We did not have sufficient knowledge then.
The same is valid for 2012. Everything leading to that critical point of transformation is coming into existence systematically: climate changes, geological shifts, social turbulences, and political changes. So, to estimate a date is nothing more than a prophecy. However, we can say that at the end of 2012, nothing will be the same, and a completely different conjuncture will rule the world in terms of social, economical and cultural parameters. The sources will be used up quickly, social structures will be jolted, people will be more anxious about their futures, and wars will be ordinary events.
So, you think we will not be screaming, “Hurray! 2012 is over, and we are all enlightened!” On the contrary, it will be like a solstice, when the darkness reaches its peak before it slowly gets lighter. At this point, I want to direct a question to Cem. What are your opinions about this darkness? What is its role in this entire crisis, and, on the other hand, will it trigger the need for light? Shall we banish this darkness and reach the light in coming days? If we focus on the light, do we speed up this process, or is this only a dream?
I agree with Burak for the first time. Some people claim that doomsday is coming, and others say that our DNA spirals will change. However, this only departs from the essence of the issue. Anyone who loses his way wanders in circles, and this is also valid for our mental situation. A lost man also repeats the same things. Remember Einstein’s quote, “You cannot solve a problem with the same mind that created it.” The problem is to succeed and proceed on a straight line, and the main thing we should obey is to not lose our center.
Now, I want to draw your attention to a serious situation: Everything begins in the mind before it comes into existence in our material reality. For example, the samurais would take their children to execution fields and show them the people dying. This would prepare the children for death. Today, American Navy Seal Commandos are taken to slaughterhouses to watch the animals there so they get accustomed to brutality. Now, turn on the television. Never before have we watched massacres and brutality so detailed and from different angles like those we do now in a show! I do not know if we had this before. In my childhood, which is not too long ago, even horror films were not as full of violence as the cartoon films now. These scenes are ordinary now, because we saw too many similar scenes and got used to them. Before, if someone lost his arm in the street, few people could watch without feeling nauseous. Now, people can watch a similar thing happen and make fun of it. It was only in Roman arenas where brutality was a game. At the end, one of the gladiators was killed and it was over. The audience would watch the events and leave. They could not see it from multiple angles, nor did they hear music to increase the tension or watch reruns of the fights. However, today we watch similar things as if they are real and accept them all as normal and ordinary. 20 years ago, if we saw a man with a bleeding nose on TV, we would say, “It looks as if it’s real.” Today, we hear the stories of serial killers and understand the way they think and maybe even feel sympathy for them. Today these scenes go beyond reality because there is too much exaggeration. As a result, killing someone is not hard for people because we practice these things every day. How did we come to this point? Did we mind the rules the world injected into our veins, or is it a result of a natural process? I believe both of these theories are right. This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but I believe somehow these things shape the world. If we begin discussing this topic, it will take hours, but it would be a good mental exercise for all of us. Even if everything is the result of natural processes or a product of people’s minds, the reality is that the darkness and chaos has reached a critical mass now. Today, we are not living in a sustainable manner. The world’s resources are not sufficient to enable sustainable lives for such a large population. This population should decrease, and it would be better to achieve this without pain. For example, if we used our technology for 500 million people only, without any subsequent increase, the Earth would be a heaven. You know, there some examples of it within history. However, the masses have a different point of view than individuals. The masses are more brutal and rude, which we can see through social events. A single person does not think to ruin others’ assets, but when a thousand people come together, they all become pillagers. I mean, the masses do not think and can be dangerous.
Today, the ones who can rule the masses have the determining role in the destiny of the world. During 68 events, these powers felt the wind of defeat, but the minds of the young people of that time began to wander, as they do today. They forgot the main issues and shifted to other things. So, the power that had the strength to change the world disappeared. Today, the same situation exists but is more complicated and dangerous. This time, the problem lies in the consciousness and the perception of humanity. Economic crises and other turbulent events amplify our existing fears and insecurities, leading us towards the darkness. Consequently, even if we do not experience any external disaster such as a meteor or solar storm, we still have to get rid of the situation that we created ourselves.
When I was in high school, I had a cassette player, which I used for many years, and it never broke down. I later gave it to my nephew and two days later, it was broken. Similarly, my sister gave me a washing machine. It was an old one that would maybe work for only six months or so. However, something happened, and I used it for many years. Then I realized something: My calmness affected my material world positively. It is not a miracle but just a simple thing. For example, two people drive the same car; one always experiences problems with the car, while the other drives without any issues. There is a similar interaction in our communication with the world.
So, my short answer to your question is, “Yes, due to the changes in our mental states, we will experience positive or negative results.”
The economic crisis in 1929 was ended by the Second World War, and today’s world took shape. To overcome the new crisis, do we also need a war? Cem talked about the population problem and how we are really too crowded. Can a war help this? If it helps, can the remaining ones fix the problems? Or, let me ask this: Are we so hopeless, dear Burak?
Cem pointed out three critical issues that could be the topics of other conversations. First, “the masses can be more brutal than the individuals.” Well, it depends on your point of view. If these individuals are the members of a group that internalized the brutality, this statement is not true. But if they are observers only, then this statement is true. I mean a mass of people does not always mean the same thing as a majority. The values, perceptions, reactions, and reflexes of the majority always carry the potential of being brutal. Lynching is a type of hysteria that occurs as a result of manipulation. In other words, if the sample group within the mass is a majority, you should expect some potential for brutality because the potential of a group is equal to its most brutal members. That’s why people who never insult anyone can swear at footballers during matches. Football culture is the tangible example. It shows that any group has as much potential as its members. We should not ignore that fact.
The second thing Cem emphasized was, “The group of people who can manipulate the actions of the masses.” This is a key point, because a large part of history is the result of the choices and inclinations of groups that have the ability to manage the momentum of the masses. To give an example of this, the fascists were a small group of privileged people that dominated the majority, so we made a mistake. A small minority harasses a big majority, but the majority does not understand what is going on. At the same time, another small minority who sees the reality and objects to it is demolished by the majority thanks to the efforts of fascism, just like throwing innocents to the lions.
The third concept was, “to change the world.” This is directly linked to the first two. Now, let’s put them in the same plane:
First, the majority of the masses are ruder, more inclined to violence, and more selfish. This is not a humiliation but a finding (to highlight relativity). Consequently, to manage the social and physical power of the majority, it is important to determine the flow of history and the future. The one who wants to change the world (always in the minority) has tried various methods throughout history. Most of them failed at the final stage; perhaps this was linked with the mental reasons. Some representatives of the minority tried to launch a coup, while others dissolved into the society and undertook missions.
Socialism was the result of this second type; its aim was to encourage the masses to take the reins of their destiny. Unfortunately, we cannot say it was successful because it ultimately failed. The key point is that the momentum to put the masses into action should come from the “light,” not from the “darkness.” This minority should be the group of people who sacrificed themselves for the welfare of everyone and who have common sense. But first, everyone in this minority should 1) develop their awareness; 2) know how to be together and initiate the change both individually and socially; and 3) have willingness to change the world positively. Now let me answer you:
The depression in 1929 is not the first example. The nature of capitalism is prone to chaos, which often triggers depressions. The most serious depression was experienced at the end of the 19th century and was overcome by the First World War. The depression between 1929 and 1933 ended with the help of a Keynes approach, where the economy was questioned, as well as by the Second World War. How is the situation now? I think we are in a worse position than we were in the above mentioned crises. Even a new “world war” cannot solve this, but if the preeminent powers—who are ambitious, ravenous, and fearful—succeed to manage the momentum of the masses, they will do everything to force us to that point. The point is what the minority, the people who have some values, will do. This will be one of the various experiences between darkness and light.
The rulers of darkness have many options and weapons, whereas the warriors of light lack sufficient tools. How will the balance be maintained? Will the light succeed and rule the world? What can we do as individuals? Should we just sit and wait? Cem?
Every thesis needs an antithesis to exist. So, as Burak explained very well, to direct the masses towards a certain direction, you have to give them an enemy. Before realizing they have to fight something other than the so-called enemy, their actions gain a certain amount of momentum.
In games like chess, you always hide your main target behind some smaller ones. This is one of the best-known tactics, because war is synonymous with deception. This means there is always an apparent attack and a hidden one. The most important thing is to fight the opponent while managing the attack from the back stage.
Putting a large mass into motion is dependent on the force you apply: how and from which direction should you give it momentum? For example, if you want to move a stone weighing 1000 kilos, the point you should push is not at the bottom but at the top. That means even a small force is enough to cause a substantial movement. How you apply that force also matters, of course.
All the eras of the world show ascending and descending trends. Everything in the cosmos also obeys that basic law. Everything rises and falls, and then rises again. Whatever we are experiencing will come to an end one day. I do not mean that life on Earth will end, because I do not believe in that. However, during that fall, a great many people may cease to exist. This cannot be prevented. Perhaps we can soften the process and ease the pain, but we cannot stop it. If we manage to prevent this, a worse destruction will follow. But, in every bad situation, you can find the seed of a good one; the opposite is also true. In the darkest periods, the greatest minds are also born.
The darkness is the cocoon where the light is fermented. I believe this is valid for our time, too. We should only build a state of conscious to feed the light. However, this will not be achieved through awakening the kundalini energy or enlightening by breathing exercises during weekend courses. If it could be achieved so simply, it would mean that the people who sacrificed themselves to spiritual studies for 20–30 years must really be untalented. Of course, it is possible that we are untalented. On the other hand, New Age trends and their strange derivatives feed the darkness. The inner transformation is a gradual process. It needs patience. Our inner light should be knitted with patience.
Your analyses are really useful, but we always think about something. I know where I stand, and I try to do my best on that path. For example, this interview is also a workshop for me. Some of our readers will really yearn for the “light” and think, “What can I do?” after reading this interview, but they do not know what to do. What can you advise? What should we do for our world and our future?
I have a few short comments: Everyone will make their own decisions according to their choices, intuitions and “inner voices.” However, we should be aware that we are really witnessing a critical phase in history; after this, nothing will be the same as before. All people should think what kind of a world they desire for themselves and their loved ones. Anyone who is reading this interview is surely a member of the minority and knows what to do, and so does not need anyone to dictate actions. Their intuitions, consciences, minds and desires of a world they hope to see will bind the people together, the ones who are on the same wavelength. This was the case during every critical point in history. The most critical issue can be summarized with these two actions: live and survive. This is not an individual survival, but rather survival among others with the same intentions.
To cut it short (because we can answer this from many perspectives), the most applicable thing is to “determine the real need.” The individual should determine his real needs at every level. For centuries (or more), we have been cheated; we thought we needed things that we really did not. The same is true today. We believe we need things that we really do not, and when we cannot have them, we feel unhappy and fearful. This helps the darkness to prevail. To define our real needs, we need to reach a spiritual peace first. A peaceful person does not like excessive consumption; he does not need to consume to feel his existence. He has calm and well-balanced relations with others. If we start from that point, we can have the most effective action plan for the warrior of light (I know this is a popular term), and we can find a balance between need and consumption.
Thank you all for this marvelous interview. The Wise will cover all these things during 2012, and we will evaluate the developments together in the coming issues.
Hasan Sonsuz Çeliktaş
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