Who are the immortals? Are they more advanced versions of ordinary people? Or are they born into this world for a specific reason, such as experiencing immortality? Or are they something else?
Dear Cem, I would like to mention an interesting subject in this issue. We first encountered it in your novel Thumos, and you later talked about it during some of our private conversations. Since then, I’ve come across this subject in various different sources. Our subject is the immortals. Rather than being truly immortal, these individuals are more like versions of the X-Men heroes, being flesh and blood. They’re people who have special abilities that we perceive as the stuff of science fiction—such as teleportation, astral projection, time travel, or having some enhanced attribute like extraordinary physical strength. While thinking about this subject, the heroes of mythology come to mind, and I can’t help but wonder if these heroes were modeled on actual living people. We’ll talk about this later, but let’s first start by asking whom these immortals are? Are they more advanced versions of ordinary people? Or are they born into this world for a specific reason, such as experiencing immortality? Or are they something else?
Originally, the immortals were just ordinary people like you and me, Hasan. The only difference is that they’re much more talented in their fields. Some of them have superior physical abilities or more energy than we have, which means their bodies are naturally more powerful. Others, however, have powerful spirits. Building on this strong basis with long years of training and sacrifice, they reach a certain transitional point. At this point, their chances of survival are 50:50. They then make an agreement and sign it with their own blood. If they die, they are the only ones responsible. If they eventually manage to complete this stage and survive, they turn into immortals. This immortality is not physical at first, so if they die, their bodies are destroyed, but their consciousnesses go on. This consciousness can create a new body for itself after death, so they can return to life by creating a copy of the original body. It takes much more time for the body to gain its own immortality. Either way, being immortal turns a person into a kind of angel or other attendant entity. When you become immortal, you are expected to use your powers after death for certain duties, such as working as a guardian angel.
This all sounds pretty fantastical. For instance, could Hızır Aleyhisselam from our culture be also counted as one of these immortals? Can these entities embody themselves at will? Or do they already have a body, and they are teleporting themselves?
Hızır is most probably an immortal. The stories about him resemble those of the immortals. Likewise, when we read about the gods of myth, we see they also have similar abilities. I guess mythology might be conveying stories about these immortals. I’m not sure if “teleporting themselves” is the right expression, but, for example, during every Chinese New Year, masters invite their own masters (who have already left this world) to celebrate. Those masters then join in the celebrations as flesh-and-blood humans. Out of the blue, they appear before your very eyes. For me, this is the most conclusive proof of life after death.
What kind of extraordinary things are these masters capable of? What kind of things have you seen?
I’ve seen many things, Hasan. As you know, I’ve been to Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Macau, and Malaysia, and I’ve only recently returned to Turkey. The purpose of my journey was to meet the masters there. The masters I encountered were incredible at healing. With my own eyes, I saw two paralyzed men begin to walk again within just four days. The masters also moved objects without touching them. They burned a hole in the center of a newspaper sheet. Moreover, Master Chiang channeled that same energy to my body, and I now have a burn mark on my belly that looks like a cigarette burn. The master also channeled this energy to a voltmeter, and the pointer reached the maximum reading of ten thousand volts.
One of the most interesting things the master did was to fill a room with energy. There were five of us present, and the master told us to take a deep breath. The second we took that breath, wonderfully scented, honey-flavored nectar started flowing down our throats. Our bodies were also covered with the same sweet taste. We continued drinking this nectar for 12 hours. It’s called the nectar of blood and marrow cleansing. I’d heard of such a thing, but I thought it was just a legend. I understood what it is when I got the chance to try it for myself.
Another time, a Russian cage fighter challenged the master to a fight. The master refused to fight and assigned his student instead. This student was only five feet and three inches tall, and he gave out just one breath. That’s all. The taller Russian fighter (who was six foot five) was then taken to the hospital. We asked the student what he did, and it turned out that he had blocked his kidneys. He said, “He won’t die, but he’ll be in the hospital for a couple of months.”
At a similar event, the master killed a wounded elephant in a single breath by using one-third of the energy in his body. There were many other things like this, but the master said they were just simple things. When it comes to the grandmasters, they’re really capable of doing unbelievable things. However, with great power comes great responsibility, so the advanced stages are not taught to everyone. At that point, if you dare to abuse your powers, you can do incredible things, so you’re only allowed to enter the advanced stages of learning after some major tests.
What are these advanced stages? How incredible are the things they can do. Would you tell us in detail please, Cem?
To give an example, a grandmaster is capable of taking your soul and putting it in someone else’s body, and this is an incredible thing in my opinion. I don’t want to say everything here, because I would like to keep something to write in my new book.
Before continuing with this conversation, I have to ask something: Dude, are you crazy? Or are you just kidding us? Or should I just say, “Very funny!” Does this kind of thing really happen in our world? Or, let’s say if they really exist, how come only some people, like you, can see these masters, rather than all of us?
In fact, from now on, you will all start meeting with these masters, because, although it’s highly limited, these masters have recently been permitted to visit our world. For example, there is a chance that Master Chiang may visit Turkey. He agreed to be studied in scientific institutions and appear on TV shows. Unless the grandmaster forbids him at the last minute, he will be coming. You will then all have the chance to experience these things for yourselves.
Regarding the question about why so few people know about these masters, I guess it’s just fate. How many people would devote almost 35 years of their 42 years of life for a cause like this? How many people would voluntarily become interested in such a thing without caring about anything else? How many people would accept travelling to four different countries when his wife is about to give birth, just because the master asked him to?
So yeah, it looks like we’ll be having lots of fun when the master arrives. I cannot imagine the things that will happen on TV. When we consider all the people seeking cures, it’s not that hard to predict what could happen when they come across such a master. Even though people who call themselves healers draw a lot of attention, who knows what will happen when people come across such a powerful master, especially if he appears on TV. In fact, this is a worldwide situation. In the TV series The 4400, something was said to the healer guy: “Even you cannot cure all of them.” Does the master know what to expect if he participates in this sort of practice?
The master will not be a remedy for all humanity’s problems, that’s for sure. Even he has his own limits. There is always a more powerful master over each master. Besides, it’s impossible for everyone to get a cure because it’s extremely expensive for two reasons: Firstly, the masters are very aware of the value of the power in their hands, and, secondly, the elixirs used to cure serious diseases are very expensive. There is a weird, destiny-like chance situation in this. For example, when I was there, they brought in a tall man who was paralyzed. It was said that he owned a taxi stand. While waiting for a taxi after visiting the master, a woman saw this man and told him, “There’s a master around, so why don’t you go visit him?” They brought the man in, and after four days had passed, he regained his ability to walk and reverted to his normal health. How fortunate he was! It was all because a woman came to his taxi stand and talked about this master.
If there was a chance of things getting out of control the way it did in The 4400, the grandmasters would not allow the masters to go out into the world. However, as you may have noticed, Hollywood keeps making up movies and TV series about paranormally talented people. These kinds of abilities, especially for children, are starting to be seen as in the realm of possibility. I think the new generation is being prepared for this. There might be a transition of this kind along with 2012. I think a new understanding will replace the old. This possibility was being prepared in the collective conscience of humanity, as I believe it. Not long from now, these things will be considered to be normal, and these powers will probably spread among the masses. Our DNA will not be altered the way some people assume, but the knowledge will be within our grasp from now on. I think that in the near future, there’ll be many people using these powers, and our children, and maybe even us, will have the chance to see it. I believe that our general understanding will change in many fields, such as science and medicine.
I find it hard to believe when I think about it, and it becomes more unbelievable when I consider the way our media will report it. Plus, the international media will be no different to ours. Even if Jesus showed up and said, “I’m back; here I am,” I cannot imagine what the media would turn it into. Of course, different forces wanting to control these powers might be causing this. I mean, we all know the media is controlled by powerful groups for their own purposes. At first, these groups will accuse and publicly humiliate these extra-talented people. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, they will try to control and use them for their own ends, justifying it using national security.
At this point, some questions come to mind: Why aren’t governments and other powerful groups using these talented people already? Or, are they already using them, but, as always, it’s kept secret from us? Are they going to allow such knowledge to be spread among the people? Here’s another question: While TV series like Heroes and The 4400 prepare people for such a transition, is it possible that these series are also being used to keep these talented people quiet and out of sight by threatening them with these stories?
I would like to highlight some of those issues, Hasan, so I can give better answers to your questions:
If it were up to the masters, they would rather stay anonymous. They prefer to improve themselves without attracting attention. However, modern times started to make it nearly impossible for them to hide in obscurity, so they’re looking for appropriate ways to reveal themselves.
They’re placing obstacles to prevent this knowledge from being accessible for everyone. For example, even if you managed to be accepted by a master, the price of the learning process is extremely high, and you ultimately risk your life to pass beyond some levels.
On the other hand, the masters are fighting for their continued existence because their numbers are declining. There are various reasons for this, but one is because people became more interested in easier things, so they’re no longer willing to make the required effort for these powers. So, the masters need to find a balance between two objectives: keeping those powers secret and keeping them sustainable. That’s really hard work.
This has nothing to do with religion—this should be clearly understood. There are Muslim masters and Christian ones. The improvement of a person in this field of powers is a completely technical issue, and it is about cosmic order. If you’re not responsible enough for a power, the cosmos somehow tries to avoid giving it to you. In other words, you’re constantly tested. If I told you about all the tests I took in the years before the masters accepted me, you’d get what I mean. Let’s just say that not everyone would show as much patience.
Of course, there are, and always have been, people and governments seeking these powers, and there always will be. However, these powers cannot be imitated. Even though they’re trying to re-create them systematically, they won’t get far with it. They even tried to make an army of people with special powers in some countries that I won’t name right now, but they saw that it didn’t work. Somehow, it just doesn’t work; it just doesn’t happen. Some weird law prevents it from happening. Yet, there are powerful people who have passed to the dark side, and I wouldn’t like to encounter them.
Of course, the media could bombard these people with questions. Even if they passed every test right before everyone’s eyes, if people don’t want to believe something, they simply won’t. There is no limit to humanity’s skepticism. If a man decides not to believe in a particular thing, he will say you tricked him even after you kill and resurrect him.
Let’s not forget that these sorts of powers always bring worldly ambitions into the open. These powers are very seductive and thus very dangerous. If a person’s mind is tempted by power, it usually doesn’t end well, so it’s essential to learn not to care about these powers while learning to improve them. As I’m sure you can imagine, it’s not that easy.
This is a rather disappointing situation. In the end, the reality of “whoever pays the piper, calls the tune” applies to these masters too. While we live in a world where money and power already dominate everything, it’s sad for the people who don’t have them and barely manage to survive. So, according to this, even if one of our readers tried to do many things for this world that suffers from poverty, even though this person always carried this ambition in his heart, he will never be able to participate in this kind of improvement even if he greatly desires it. This harms my feeling and belief in justice. I don’t know; it just upset me.
There are three ways of developing a person’s potential. One of them is Hou Tian, which is the way of the people that I just told you about. The second one is Xian Tian, which uses the powers of the pearl located in between the eyebrows, instead of the pearl located under the belly. This is a rather different method, but similarly great forces are involved in both. Both of these methods tend to become power oriented if activated in an unenlightened mind. It’s as simple as that. For this reason, while these forces are developing, you’re supposed to be connected to a master. Otherwise, this power can easily tempt your mind. This is why they say, “If you don’t have a master, your master is the devil.” This saying depicts people walking on the path of power, so if you don’t have a master while walking this path, it means many dangers await you. But if you do have a master, you become enlightened in time and discard your obsessions.
The third way is thought to be the most powerful of all. It is so powerful that it overpowers both Xian Tian and Hou Tian. It is called “The Way of the Heart.” But the way of the heart has its own difficulty: This way has no way. In other words, it doesn’t have a certain technique or method. Perhaps the only way to describe this is as “Learning Fearlessness.” If you manage to walk the way of the heart, you don’t need a master, and the powers that you gain in the end will overpower all other masters. This glorious way is always open to everyone, so to speak.
What we call “The way of knowing yourself” is a path we’re trying to walk through reading, observing, learning, and practicing. Is this way a part of the things you’ve mentioned? In other words, is this way, which most of our readers are trying to walk by themselves, “The Way of the Heart” you talk about? The other ways seem rather irrelevant when I consider the people in my immediate environment. For a start, finding a “master” is a major obstacle. You never know who to trust and believe. Among the people I know in this community, I don’t really trust more than five of them. Likewise, there are many other people in this situation. On the other hand, another group of people dreams about finding a master and seeking shelter in him, but I wasn’t talking about these. Those people are searching for a shepherd. What is the typical situation of the people who try to walk by themselves?
As it happens, all the ways lead us toward the way of the heart in the end. In one of them, you first gain the power then you try to be enlightened; this is why it’s dangerous, because an unenlightened mind has the capacity to use a lot of power. When it comes to the way of the heart, you gain powers after you become enlightened, which means these powers work in a way free from your ego. The way of the heart has nothing to do with reading or learning, and you can’t reach it through these, although they don’t hurt either. The way of the heart is based on fearlessness in real terms. For example, there is a quote from Jesus: “But to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” This saying could be regarded as a study on the way of the heart. Giving happens so spontaneously that you are not even aware of it. You do not become good just to gain something; you are already good. That’s all.
As is seen, the way of the heart depends upon self-surrender, fearlessness, and love. When the heart is fearless, you can understand that you’re walking on the way of the heart. This way does not require a master. If a person already has a master, it won’t be harmful, but it isn’t necessary. I’ve had the privilege of knowing some people who made some progress on this path. They are indeed very impressive, even more so than the immortals. The way of the heart develops like that, Hasan. During my latest trip, a friend of mine, who had recently become immortal, almost killed another immortal by accident, even though he was more advanced than my friend. My friend did not intend to harm him, but while the other immortal was transferring energy to my friend, my friend suddenly started to suck the life “jing” out of him. If the master hadn’t stopped the energy transmission, the other immortal probably would have died in a few seconds. After the incident, my friend asked how he managed to do it. The master replied, “By using the power of the heart.” After gaining his powers, my friend had started working on the way of heart. He started to grow in power faster than an ordinary immortal would. Even the master was astonished by this situation. To put a long story short, the heart has an incredible power indeed.
All of the things you’ve talked about are full of terms and very disciplined. What about those who have never seen a Chinese master in their lives, have not seriously studied these things, or don’t even know how to practice them. What about the people who are reading books or watching movies about these things and trying to know themselves using these kinds of methods? What are they going to do? This question remains for me. Could they never become one of those masters? Is it impossible for them to use such powers?
I already covered this, Hasan, when I said how the way of the heart has no way. You don’t need a master to proceed on the way of the heart. All you need to do is learn love and fearlessness. If you manage to fill your heart with fearlessness and find peace in your mind, these powers begin to emerge spontaneously, with more on the way. The mechanism of this is quite simple. First, you need to be purified of the fears caused by delusions of the ego, so you stop being afraid and surrender yourself. This way, fearlessness fills your heart, and this state of fearlessness provides a peaceful state of mind. Unfortunately, as long as fear persists, the mind has no chance of finding peace. Once the mind is at peace, because the heart is free from fear, there is more space for love to come in. Immediately afterwards, unconditional love starts to take place, and with this comes the absence of judging.
This state would reveal the secrets if you decided to proceed. Together with this clarification, the powers begin to reveal themselves spontaneously. Moreover, because they sprang from an enlightened mind, they are very powerful yet never used for harm. So, I’m going to repeat it one more time. You don’t need a master to proceed on the way of the heart, but remember that the way of the heart does not have a certain technique or method, so it’s very accessible yet very hard.
You were talking exclusively about Chinese masters, because they’re the ones you know, but you just said similar masters exist in other cultures too. As you know, there are various quacks in our country, people who claim to cure illness by breathing out and those so-called masters who claim to use genies. I know these cannot be compared with the Chinese masters, but my reason for mentioning them is that there may be people trying to present themselves as immortals by referring to our interview. I know it sounds like a joke, but the things we’ve encountered have brought me to the edge of paranoia. So, how do those immortals exist in other cultures, such as in Islamic culture?
Of course, there’ll always be fake gods, and some of them will be jealous and demanding. Frankly, it’s not my job to hunt down these impostors and reveal them; my job is to find the real masters. I hope you’re not offended if I leave this job to someone else. However, I can show you two ways of testing if they are real or not. If they really possess real powers, they should be able to do these two things:
If they have powers like in Hou Tian, they should be able to unleash an energy that feels like 220 volts of electricity is surging through your body. You’ll know it when that energy enters your body. It feels like electricity but not quite. Also, they should be able to move objects without touching them.
If they possess powers similar to Xian Tian, which is more common in the western world, they should be able to repeat the first-stage test. Let’s say you put a cell phone behind an obstruction, such as a plate you’re holding vertically. The master should be able to channel his energy so as to move the cell phone through the plate, making it reappear on the other side. This is the first-stage test of Xian Tian.
These are the two main tests. Someone who claims to be immortal should be able to prove it by completing one of these tests, because these are the two primary ones.
Aside from this, some people say they don’t have such powers, but they claim to be healers. Approach them with caution, but do not dismiss them as quacks straight away. For example, there is a man called Alberto Villoldo. One of his books, Mending the Past & Healing the Future, was published in Turkey, and he is a very good healer indeed. He doesn’t possess great powers, but he is a talented healer. What I’m trying to express here is that you don’t need great powers to be a great healer. I do, however, know many tests for someone claiming to be an immortal or having great powers, so if anyone out there is claiming such things, I would like to meet him or her.
The path followed in Islamic culture—especially by saints such as Rumi, Yunus Emre, and Hacı Bektaş—is the way of the heart, the most powerful way. These masters gained great powers and became saints by walking the way of the heart. Islamic teachings, if understood and absorbed perfectly, could make these powers emerge. After all, the linguistic definition of Islam is “to surrender.”
Could there be a more appropriate definition for fearlessness and the way of the heart?
So what about mythical characters? Could those stories depict the legend-sauced, real-life stories of people that lived in the world back then? I’m asking this because, for example, Osiris, Isis, Seth, and Hermes are said to have been real human beings by esoteric sources. Who knows what else is there in mythology? Likewise, another source tells about the Atlanteans conducting genetic studies and trying to make a human–bull hybrid, and this is how the mythical creatures were formed. What about this?
I believe mythical creatures and legends tell us more important facts than fairy tales do. To give an example, I would like to talk about the god of thunder and lightning, who is generally considered the most powerful god. In Greek mythology, Zeus is the god of thunder and lightning, and he holds a bundle of lightning bolts in each hand. Similarly, the way of the immortals, which I have just told you about, is named Lei Shan Dao, which means “The way of lightning.” A master who has proceeded on this way can generally emit two lightning bolts from his hands. In other words, when he channels his energy, actual bolts of lightning are formed in his palms. As his mastery level progresses, the number of the lightning bolts also increases, similar to Zeus. Now, do you think only Greek mythology has thunder gods? No. There are thunder gods in other cultures too: Adad in Babylonian-Assyrian mythology, Jupiter in Roman mythology, Thor in Nordic cultures, Ukko in Finnish culture, Lei Gong in China, Susanoo in Japan, Chaac in Maya mythology, Set in Egypt, Oya in Yorubas, Tawhaki, and Kaha’i in Polynesian mythology.
However, there’s a more interesting one. Who was the god of lightning in Sumer, Babylon, and Assyria?
Who is expected to come, according to ancient cultures?
It seems as if the way of lightning will be revealed in the era following 2012.
So, you’re saying people will be throwing lightning bolts out of their hands like the immortal god Lord Raiden did in the movie Mortal Kombat?
That’s not what I meant of course, but it’s going to be something relevant to the way of lightning. In other words, the true potential of humanity will be revealed. However, this potential will test us about the use of this force. Are we going to destroy ourselves, or are we going to advance ourselves? The post-2012 era is highly critical in this sense. We need the way of the heart more than ever. Of course, this way doesn’t have to be about human energy. As I mentioned before, the struggle to gain money and power or to control people…all of this belongs to the way of lightning or the way of power, or Marduk in this sense. To cut a long story short, we’re going to be tested by this force. If we pass the test, we will be victorious.
These powers seem very open to misuse, and I guess among those who can use these powers, many choose the darkness over light because the charm of the dark side is very tempting. Aside from those able to use these powers, even people who have some knowledge about these things might, after a while, declare themselves saviors or start acting like them. Too many people are falling into this trap, especially those who have had great emptiness and stress in their past. They somehow encounter this sort of knowledge and develop themselves a little. If they also manage to gather some people around them, you can see them soon change and start acting strangely. I guess the Sirat Bridge of Islam, as they call the bridge to Heaven, must be something like this. It’s a very thin and treacherous bridge that’s extremely hard to walk on, and even a slight loss of focus causes you to fall, although you don’t even realize when you’ve fallen. From our perspective, the notions of good and bad are so sharply differentiated from one another that we fail to understand the darkness disguised as positivity. As one grows in power, the “forces of the outer self” also grow, and it becomes harder and harder to notice these traps.
That’s right. These things could happen when walking on the way of power. As I said, if a person walks on the way of power without a master, then his master will be either the devil or the dark side, but it’s not the same on the way of the heart. There is no danger on this path, because it’s impossible for it to be dangerous. Because the way itself is all about fearlessness and love, a person walking this way will have no interest in power. By being fearless and disinterested in power, the heart finds peace. If the heart is peaceful, what could set it going? However, if we have fear in our hearts, then regardless of whether we know a Chinese immortal or not, we are walking on the way of power, and it is possible to turn toward darkness.
All kinds of struggle—whether it’s for money, to make yourself heard, to acquire followers, to be admired by people, or to control people and circumstances—make you walk on the way of power. I may not be moving objects with telekinesis by doing these things, but I definitely gain great power. As long as I walk on this way, darkness will be by my side to tempt my mind.
Unfortunately, when I look at people, I see that nine out of every ten have hearts filled with fear, Hasan. These people are walking on the way of power without even noticing it, and they’re carrying darkness with them. Furthermore, you can’t imagine how hard it is to convince these people that they’re frightened. Instead of understanding it, they try to control it. They’re trying to control themselves, their lives, their money, their time, their environment, and the people around them. There is always fear beneath this obsession with power and control. Where fear is involved, there unfortunately is an obsession with power. I’ll repeat it one more time, whether you’re trying to unleash energy from your body or make people listen to you, it makes no difference. Both of these belong to the way of power, and both are the way of fear. Whether those powers have physical or energetic means, as I told above, if those powers are not combined with an enlightened mind or a fearless heart, they’re very dangerous. This is exactly what has happened to this world, Hasan.
Okay Cem, so let’s finish by talking about things reflected in popular culture. The following productions seem like good examples: the Star Wars movies about the light and dark sides of the force (which were based on Joseph Campbell’s The Hero’s Journey); the X-Men comic strips and movies about mutants with special abilities; and Heroes and The 4400, which were about ordinary people gaining special abilities and how it affected their lives. Do you think they’re reflecting the truth, part of the truth, or pure fiction? Besides, what do you think the purpose of these productions is—is it to get humans accustomed to a world where these extraordinary things are possible? Or is it to get people to deny these things by convincing them they can only happen in movies?
Star Wars: Episode 3—Revenge of the Sith was especially successful at telling how fear and hatred draw people toward the dark side. Conversely, episode six (Return of the Jedi) told about returning home to the heart and the way of love. Therefore, I will say that the third and sixth episodes of the Star Wars series were terrific. The conscious mind of humanity flows like a big river, making turns at some points in human history in order to move toward new directions. Plus, we’re living in an age when humanity’s conscious mind has started to turn toward new horizons. I think all those TV series and movies are unintentionally preparing us for the possibility of these forces. I’m not claiming that some outer forces are planning it like this. It’s just that time, by its nature, is moving toward the acceptance of these powers. As you know, we have managed in just 20 years to achieve technologies that we saw and admired in sci-fi series like Star Trek and Space 1999 when we were kids. If this has reached as far as Hollywood itself, it’s only a matter of time before people develop the same skills. By time, I must add that this period would probably be somewhere between 10 and 100 years, but if you ask my opinion, our generation will witness these kind of powers during our lifetimes.
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